The Sharing Group Discussion on the Ahadits “Conspiracy”

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

Sister Eleanor Grant put up a video on The Sharing Group, on the 20^th March 2015, titled, “Hadith: Conspiracy to Destroy Islam.” 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: This entire video is essentially a conspiracy theory.  None of it is true, and I almost expected to hear Elvis is alive, our leaders are lizards and aliens built the Eiffel Tower. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: Conspiracy theorists are seen as crazy people, but often you will find they are the ones closest to the truth. 

Brother Jon Beatty: Actually, most of the time conspiracy theorists are just that, people who dream up conspiracies using random clips and points and trying to tie them together unsuccessfully, kind of like loose change but for Islam. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Conspiracy theories work because there is an element of truth there.  It seems plausible.  The plausibility there is that ahadits are problematic.  But not for the reasons outlined here.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the verification and authentication process.  There is a lot wrong with the way people wield them as some sort of mandate to justify all sorts of nonsense. 

Simply throwing out ahadits and devaluing them is throwing the baby out with the bath water.  They have an essential part to play in understanding scripture.  But only when people take the time to understand them.  The problem we have with ahadits is the same one we have with the Qur’an: people interpreting them according to their agenda, not Divine Intent.  Considering the compilation process, the same reasons that are used to discount ahadits also work on the Qur’an.  And then what have we left? 

Brother Billy Johnston: People sometimes mistrust the mainstream stuff they hear and accept conspiracy theories as a position which justifies their mistrust.  As Brother Terence mentioned, conspiracy theories often have an element of truth, but too often they are like a person drinking water and wine one night, and water and whiskey the next and concluding it is indeed the water that made them drunk.  It must not be forgotten that even those who put out conspiracy theories often have their own agenda.  There is also enough media and free press out there that there is too much incentive to be made in blowing the whistle on a falsehood.  This especially goes for mainstream media, who sometimes even make a living, or a business, out of calling out the other’s mistakes and falsehoods. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴنعَام

وَإِن تُطِعۡ أَڪۡثَرَ مَن فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ‌ۚ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا ٱلظَّنَّ وَإِنۡ هُمۡ إِلَّا يَخۡرُصُونَ (١١٦) 

And if you obey most of those on the Earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah’s Path.  They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie. (Surah al-An’am:116) 

I feel safer in the minority. 

Brother Billy Johnston: The inherent problem is feeling safe. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: Why is that?  To feel safe is to put your trust in God. 

Brother Billy Johnston: There is nothing wrong with putting your trust in God, but feeling safe can be a path to arrogance, particularly if taken to an extreme. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: I see.  Feeling safe in a minority is arrogance.  Whenever a Messenger was Sent to the people by God, they were in the minority, and they put their trust in God, and they were not arrogant.  I am not claiming to be a Messenger.  I am just sharing something that I think should be considered.  If you do not like it, fine.  But please do not assume I am arrogant because I have a different interpretation of Islam to you. 

Brother Billy Johnston: I did not say you were arrogant.  I stated feeling safe can be a path to arrogance.  There is a science to ahadits.  Chains of transmission are analysed and weighted on their strength.  While many ahadits are indeed subject to some differences in scholarly interpretation, however they are interpreted, even with those differences in opinion, must be in agreement with the definitive message of the Qur’an.  Are there ahadits with problems that are weak?  Yes.  Are some contextual to their times?  Yes.  Are some not meant for literal interpretation?  Yes.  Given all the years of scholarship and history, it is almost like going on the position the world is flat.  Perhaps it is, but given the many years of scholarly questioning and examining of ahadits, I side against the conspiracy theories.  Everyone should do their own due diligence, and certainly everyone has the right to their own opinion. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: The anti-ahadits movement is not just a minority, but a tiny minority.  And they have no scholarship, no history, no credibility in the religious sciences.  Their only asset is the sense of superiority they feel because they have “found true Islam”.  They only know translations of the verses but without any of the sciences of it.  That means they do the exact same thing with the Qur’an that they accuse Muslims of doing with the ahadits - take them out of context.  The greatest hilarity, however, is that for a group that claims Qur’an only, they know nothing of asbab an-nuzul, the order and reason of Revelation.  Thus, they call for the eradication of ahadits due to perceived problems with the collation process, when those “reasons” would also apply to the Qur’an itself since they were compiled at the same time. 

The issue with these minorities is that they have this need to feel safe, special.  It is like a secret club that children play at.  In this case, they suppose that they are on the Path, and the Muslims are wrong.  And they ignore the parts of the Qur’an that are clear on the very things that make us Muslims.  In general, I advocate that we be gentle with them.  They are good people, and most of them swing to this extreme because they had the misfortune of meeting Muslims of the other extreme, the Salafis, the pseudo-Sufis, the cultural Muslims and deviants of all sort who have used the ahadits to justify their excesses, their oppression and their crimes of the heart.  But throwing away ahadits is not the answer.  These other group of people will use the Qur’an to justify their hate.  And if we remove the Qur’an, they will find some other Scripture. 

My advice is that the solution can only be found in scholarship and sincere friendship with the right sort of people.  The path of scholarship is difficult and littered with shattered egos.  The path of friendship with the sincere is easier.  But the first road is an open way.  And the second is a hidden track in the mountains, since even a friend is difficult to find.  The first is not for everyone.  The second, once found, welcomes all.  A sincere friend is found in the one who does not weigh you by your labels and judge you for what you are, but understands you for who you are. 

Sister Juriah Din: This is so ridiculous.  Ahadits are not Divine at all.  It is like telling people to follow the New Testament, written decades after Jesus’ demise.  You can only read them with a pinch of salt.  I would choose to read only the genuine. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: The ahadits were not written decades after the time of the Prophet (s.a.w.).  They were written in his time by the swahabah.  This include the Swahifah ibn ‘Umar and Swahifah Abu Hurayrah.  The anti-ahadits movement, however, due to their ignorance, claim that Imam Abu ‘Abdullah Muhammad ibn Isma’il al-Bukhari (r.a.) wrote them, several hundred years later, for example.  The Gospels, the first four books of the New Testament, were written approximately 90 to 100 years after the time of Jesus (a.s.).  The various epistles are dated from before and after the Gospels, some of indeterminate authorship.  There is no comparison.  And as Muslims, the Qur’an States Jesus (a.s.) is not dead. 

Sister Amanda Grace: Actually, ahadits have been around even before the Prophet (s.a.w.) passed away, just not in book form.  They are like stories they heard from him, but in a way of teaching us.  If we want to know how to pray, can we get it just from the Qur’an?  If we want to know in-depth, the meaning of the ayat, where do we go?  The Ahl al-Bayt and other pious predecessors have explained it in detail, right?  And so has Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) by his teachings to those close to him, right?  So, how can we get these meanings, if not in authentic ahadits or understanding the Qur’anic commentaries?  The same goes for rulings in wudhu’ and ghusl.  How else is one to know what to say, what to do exactly if not from the ahadits?  The Qur’an only says so much, for if everything was in detail, the Holy Book would be too big and separated.  Allah (s.w.t.) Sent these down like that for a reason, I believe. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: How do we know when they were written down?  Muhammed forbade it when he was alive.  This is clear from Qur’an. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Sister Eleanor, everything you think you know about the Qur’an comes from a source, right?  What makes the source telling you the Qur’an was clear, no other texts are relevant, credible?  I have studied linguistics, somewhat, and translation and interpretation are not exact sciences.  Context is everything.  For some English speaker to read a translation of a text like the Qur’an, or anything else comparable, like the Tao Te Ching, another ancient non-English document of spiritual importance to many, and infer on their own theological principles is just overreaching.  I am sorry, but that is not an intellectually honest approach to theology, religion, or life. 

That is not how spirituality works.  We do not set out in our quest looking for safety, and magically stumble across truth.  We do not choose to believe in whichever narrative is most convenient to believe in, if we are serious about being spiritual and finding the truth.  That is a sure path to mediocrity, revisionism, and intellectual dishonesty.  I am actually saying this as someone who knows where you come from.  Four years ago, I considered myself a Qur’an-only, ahadits rejecter.  It was what made sense to me, as someone who did not know anything about the methodology of Islamic scholarship, as someone who distrusted authority. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: I am not sure if I understand your point, Brother Mingda.  Are you saying it's intellectually dishonest to reject the ahadits?  Intellect and spirituality are two different things.  Intellect is from the mind.  Spirituality is from the heart. 

Sister Amanda Grace: May I ask where you got the notion that Muhammad (s.a.w.) forbade things to be written down? 

Sister Juriah Din: The ahadits are hearsay.  There is no scrap of proof it was written down during Muhammad’s time, nor during the time of the swahabah.  In fact, Caliph ‘Umar ordered it all to be burned.  However, the Qur’an is Promised to be Guarded by Allah.  There are no verses in the Qur’an that say we should follow ahadits, in fact there are many verses against ahadits literature. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Sister Eleanor Grant, spirituality that is devoid of intellect is nothing more than superstition and ego-driven pretentiousness.  The heart, if it is pure, rejects falsehoods.  The heart that is astray is not concerned about what is true, only what is convenient and self-serving.  Case in point, you obviously care about things making sense and being true.  You do not want to give your heart to or to have faith in lies.  Why else would you come here, posting this?  Because your spirituality has a rational component.  Please read Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis’ comment again about the anti-ahadits movement.  He explains why you are drawn to a certain interpretation of Islam, and why, intellectually, it does not hold; the premises that such an interpretation rests on simply does not correspond to reality.  The moment we stop thinking spiritually and regress to a stage where we just want to feel safe and comfortable, spiritually, we are dead.  The point is to serve God after all, not serve ourselves and seek spirituality mainly to feel good or special. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Sister Juriah Din, you have made some interesting assertions.  You claim that the ahadits are hearsay, that Sayyidina Abu Hafsw ‘Umar ibn al-Khaththab al-Faruq (r.a.) ordered them burned, and that the Qur’an is against ahadits.  I would like to understand where you got these interesting allegations and how you substantiate them.  Simply saying something does not make it so.  In fact, that would be hearsay. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Sister Juriah Din, “hadits” in Arabic means “saying”.  How would you know what kind of “hadits” the Qur’an is actually warning us against?  Oh, right, that takes knowledge of Arabic and training.  But you do not have that.  And you sound like you do not believe in it either.  But you still think you know more than the people who have spent years learning about the Qur’an.  Why?  What makes you believe that the person saying Qur’an forbids us from following ahadits is credible?  How would you even know how to verify this person’s credibility?  The bottom line is, you are working with speculation.  Pure speculation.  You are hoping the Qur’an says this and that, but you do not want to admit that it is impossible to derive context and a credible interpretation of the Qur’an without knowing a lot of other information that you do not have, and cannot have, if everything else including ahadits is thrown out.  A bit of a dilemma, I would say. 

Sister Juriah Din: I know I am not in the level to debate.  I need to make the point that the Qur’an in its verses mentioned that the book is sufficient for our Salvation and that ahadits is written by man, and ask you as well to give me evidence otherwise. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Sister Juriah Din, we have had multiple threads on the nature and compilation of ahadits, as well as explaining their use in jurisprudence.  I am not going to repeat them here again.  But if you do stick around, insha’Allah, it will come up again.  You have to understand that we are the Ahl as-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah.  We are the overwhelming majority of the ummah of Muhammad (s.a.w.) with 1,400 years of scholarship.  You, on the other hand, espouse a line of thinking that assumes that all of us are wrong and were wrong for 1,400 years and suddenly your little group is correct.  I would think it is you who would have to explain why that is so in a compelling manner.  If you are unable to do so, and revert to slogans, that means you do not know enough of what you believe, and you do not know enough to refute.  That is no longer religion.  That is superstition. 

If there is something in the Qur’an that we did not know collectively and the entire ummah is contrary to it, that is amazing.  So, who in this Quranist camp is such an exegete of calibre, a linguist par excellence and a master of the sciences of Revelation who can refute the entire body of scholarship of Islam?  I am certainly very interested, and I would be delighted to meet such a giant. 

Sister Juriah Din: The “Giant” is only Allah (s.w.t.), as the knowledge is only with him. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: If knowledge is only with Allah (s.w.t.), and we all have no share, then why did He Send Revelation?  Revelation can only be understood if there is discernment, and discernment requires knowledge.  You are making a case for not believing in religion altogether. 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: The literalism of the Quranists is akin to the literalism of the Wahhabis - I make no distinction between them.  They both have their sects and everything is geared to defending their sects rather than ascertaining the truth of Revelation.  It has also therefore led them to draw conclusions that are heinous at best and heresy at worst.  When it comes to our worldly knowledge, we fight to ensure that we get the best and most learned teachers; but for the Diyn and the eternal, some people reject the knowledge that the learned acquired over centuries and are content to just make their own uninformed conclusions.  Shaykh Abu al-Huda Muhammad ibn Ibrahim al-Ya’qubi said it best when he noted that “La ilaha illa Allah” does not make us Muslims, but “Muhammadar Rasulullah” does! 

Sister Amanda Grace: Also, just by reading articles of justifying why someone was killed from a hadits is not meant to throw out all ahadits, and if one’s experience in such things as people take ahadits out of context.  Sister, I saw on your Wall that such an article was posted, but it cannot be said that all ahadits are used for man’s low desires and justifications and then call them all out to be heresy. 

What is done by the scholars whom have studied ahadits sciences in depth, is to take the strong ahadits, and throw out those that are against the Qur’an or anything that refutes the Qur’an.  The Qur’an is first, yes, but then whom do we get our understandings from?  Surely there is much deeper knowledge in the Qur’an than what it says just by someone’s translation? 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Sister Juriah Din, how do you know you actually understand the Divine Intent when you read a translation of the Qur’an?  Even a husband and wife, married for decades, speaking the same language with the same shared experiences, misunderstand each other.  What gives you that certainty that you know the Qur’an as it is then? 

Sister Juriah Din: Then why do they not throw those bad ahadits, if it was nuisance? 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: How do you decide if a hadits is bad or good?  What are the criteria?  If it is according to what you decide, what makes you an arbiter?  And why should people accept your decision? 

Sister Juriah Din: God is the Arbiter, because I am in no position to judge.  I would rather scrap all ahadits and stick to only God’s Revelation. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: If you are in no position to judge, then why do you decide that you are an authority to discount all ahadits?  You have just made a judgement. 

Sister Juriah Din: We have a book of over 6,000 verses, which Allah claims to be complete and fully detailed.  Surely that would be sufficient for us to follow this Diyn? 

Sister Amanda Grace: The Qur’an also explicitly Says to follow Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), right?  How can you do that without the ahadits which explains the sunnah in depth? 

Sister Juriah Din: We need verses from Qur’an to prove this, Sister Amanda. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Firstly, Sister Juriah Din, Allah (s.w.t.) Said He Completed the religion.  In that, He was Referring to the entirety of the process of Revelation, from the very first prophet to the last. 

Secondly, the Qur’an never claimed to be detailed in everything.  I would be interested if you could show me where it did.  Perhaps I missed it.  It does Mention taking the Prophet (s.a.w.) as the best example numerous times. That is why we have ahadits.  I would be interested if you can show me otherwise. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Sister Juriah Din, some people say the Qur’an Commands Muslims to kill non-believers indiscriminately.  The average non-Muslim person on the street often believes that Islam actually promotes this.  This is because people who reject scholarship isolate certain verses, translate them into English or whatever other language, and draw ridiculous and novel interpretations. 

You are not promoting murder and mayhem, you are not ISIS, but you are still taking matters into your own hands.  The Prophet (s.a.w.) taught us how to recite the Qur’an.  He told us to learn what it says from someone who learned a meaning derived from himself or someone acknowledged as a trustworthy and knowledgeable enough source.  Do you really not care about anything the Prophet (s.a.w.) himself had to tell us?  His job was just to give us a book, a vague, incredibly easy to misuse book, and just leave us without any useful advice or instructions?  At all? 

I find this almost to be offensively ignorant.  But I have been there, so all I can say is, you have a lot to learn, and gain, if you are willing.  The same for you, Sister Eleanor.  I am positive that if you keep learning more about the Qur’an, your mind and heart will be opened to its actual message, rather than trusting a dumbed down interpretation of its message that disregards history, the Prophet’s (s.a.w.) directions and intentions, and basically seeks to take advantage of your naiveté. 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: The verses are numerous, Sister Juriah. 

سُوۡرَةُ النِّسَاء

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ أَطِيعُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِى ٱلۡأَمۡرِ مِنكُمۡ‌ۖ فَإِن تَنَـٰزَعۡتُمۡ فِى شَىۡءٍ۬ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ وَٱلرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمۡ تُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ خَيۡرٌ۬ وَأَحۡسَنُ تَأۡوِيلاً (٥٩) 

O you who believe!  Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you.  If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Surah an-Nisa’:59) 

This verse is only one of them, but I am well aware that the Quranists twist the meaning of this to mean something completely different to fit into their sect. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: What does this mean, Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis? 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴنعَام

أَفَغَيۡرَ ٱللَّهِ أَبۡتَغِى حَكَمً۬ا وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ إِلَيۡڪُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مُفَصَّلاً۬‌ۚ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ يَعۡلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ ۥ مُنَزَّلٌ۬ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۖ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلۡمُمۡتَرِينَ (١١٤) 

Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? ― when He it is Who has Sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.”  They know full well, to whom We have Given the Book, that it hath been Sent Down from your Lord in Truth.  Never be then of those who doubt. (Surah al-An’am:114) 

The Qur’an is fully detailed. 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴعرَاف

وَلَقَدۡ جِئۡنَـٰهُم بِكِتَـٰبٍ۬ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ عَلَىٰ عِلۡمٍ هُدً۬ى وَرَحۡمَةً۬ لِّقَوۡمٍ۬ يُؤۡمِنُونَ (٥٢) 

For We had certainly Sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We Explained in detail ― a Guide and a Mercy to all who believe. (Surah al-A’araf:52) 

Where does Qur’an say we must follow the sunnah of Muhammad?  In numerous verses, only the Sunnah of God is Mentioned. 

سُوۡرَةُ یُونس

وَمَا كَانَ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ أَن يُفۡتَرَىٰ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَـٰكِن تَصۡدِيقَ ٱلَّذِى بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ وَتَفۡصِيلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ لَا رَيۡبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٣٧) 

This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary, it is a confirmation of (Revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book ― wherein there is no doubt from the Lord of the Worlds. (Surah Yunus:37) 

Where does Qur’an mention the ahadits of Muhammad?  The only hadits we are told to follow is the Qur’an.  How am I following a dumbed-down version of Qur’an, Brother Mingda?  There is no such thing. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: We have to look at the entire passage to see what it is addressing: 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴنعَام

وَكَذَٲلِكَ جَعَلۡنَا لِكُلِّ نَبِىٍّ عَدُوًّ۬ا شَيَـٰطِينَ ٱلۡإِنسِ وَٱلۡجِنِّ يُوحِى بَعۡضُهُمۡ إِلَىٰ بَعۡضٍ۬ زُخۡرُفَ ٱلۡقَوۡلِ غُرُورً۬ا‌ۚ وَلَوۡ شَآءَ رَبُّكَ مَا فَعَلُوهُ‌ۖ فَذَرۡهُمۡ وَمَا يَفۡتَرُونَ (١١٢) وَلِتَصۡغَىٰٓ إِلَيۡهِ أَفۡـِٔدَةُ ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ وَلِيَرۡضَوۡهُ وَلِيَقۡتَرِفُواْ مَا هُم مُّقۡتَرِفُونَ (١١٣) أَفَغَيۡرَ ٱللَّهِ أَبۡتَغِى حَكَمً۬ا وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ إِلَيۡڪُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مُفَصَّلاً۬‌ۚ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ يَعۡلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ ۥ مُنَزَّلٌ۬ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۖ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلۡمُمۡتَرِينَ (١١٤) وَتَمَّتۡ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدۡقً۬ا وَعَدۡلاً۬‌ۚ لَّا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦ‌ۚ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلۡعَلِيمُ (١١٥) 

Likewise, did We Make for every Messenger an enemy, ― evil ones, men and jinn, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception.  If your Lord had so Willed, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.  To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it and let them earn from it what they may.  Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? ― when He it is Who has Sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.”  They know full well, to whom We have Given the Book, that it has been Sent down from your Lord in truth.  Never be, then, of those who doubt.  The Word of your Lord does find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: none can change His Words: for He is the One Who Hears and Knows all. (Surah al-An’am:112-115) 

The Revelation addressed the kafirun who called the Qur’an amongst other things, a book of poetry, and the Prophet (s.a.w.), a soothsayer.  What is translated as “detailed” here, can also be understood as “explained”, “elaborated”.  This is affirmation that the Qur’an is Divinely Sent, that Allah’s (s.w.t.) Judgement is paramount, no matter the status the detractors claim, and that tawhid is the understanding that authority is vested only in Allah (s.w.t.).  It does not, in any way, mean that we utilise only the Qur’an since that would contradict other portions of the Qur’an, or that the shari’ah is fully explained. 

Likewise: 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴعرَاف

وَلَقَدۡ جِئۡنَـٰهُم بِكِتَـٰبٍ۬ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ عَلَىٰ عِلۡمٍ هُدً۬ى وَرَحۡمَةً۬ لِّقَوۡمٍ۬ يُؤۡمِنُونَ (٥٢) 

For We had certainly Sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We Explained in detail ― a Guide and a Mercy to all who believe. (Surah al-A’araf:52) 

Again, “detailed” in the English translation does not mean what you think it is.  It does not mean it goes into the nitty-gritty of religion. 

سُوۡرَةُ یُونس

وَمَا كَانَ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ أَن يُفۡتَرَىٰ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَـٰكِن تَصۡدِيقَ ٱلَّذِى بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ وَتَفۡصِيلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ لَا رَيۡبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٣٧) 

This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary, it is a Confirmation of (Revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book ― wherein there is no doubt from the Lord of the Worlds. (Surah Yunus:37) 

Again, the “details” here pertain to the fate of the believers and the disbelievers.  Not the issues of this world.  And who else gives the “fuller explanation” of the Qur’an except the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.). 

Sister Amanda Grace: Here is just one example of many from the Qur’an that you were seeking, sisters: 

سُوۡرَةُ آل عِمرَان

قُلۡ إِن كُنتُمۡ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحۡبِبۡكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغۡفِرۡ لَكُمۡ ذُنُوبَكُمۡ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌ۬ رَّحِيمٌ۬ (٣١) قُلۡ أَطِيعُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ‌ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوۡاْ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ (٣٢) 

Say: “If you do love Allah, follow me: Allah will Love you and Forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”  Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”; but if they turn back, Allah loves not those who reject faith. (Surah Ali ‘Imran:31-32) 

So, how can one follow the Prophet (s.a.w.) without the ahadits? 

Sister Eleanor Grant: By following the Qur’an that was delivered by Muhammad.  Ahadits did not come from Muhammad. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Sister Eleanor, the Qur’an Tells us to follow the leadership of the Prophet (s.a.w.) numerous times.  For you to disregard one verse to focus on another is an example of intellectual dishonesty. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: I have not disregarded any of the verses in the Qur’an.  If I have, please point out which one? 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: On the issue of sunnah, the Qur’an has many verses, which I will not repeat here, about obeying the Prophet (s.a.w.) and following him.  These are verses that the Quranists claim refer only to the Prophet (s.a.w.) when he was alive.  However, they are in the continuous tense, not the past tense.  That means, it is a continuing Divine Command.  As already mentioned in detail in previous threads, and I will not repeat them here, the word “hadits” may refer to different things depending on the context.  The Qur’an does not ever state we must only follow the Qur’an by itself literally.  It states it is a book of Guidance, expounding on the Nature of God and our relationship with the Creator.  It then states that the Prophet (s.a.w.) is the finest example. 

As much as the Quranists play verbal gymnastics, taking their preferred translations, it does not change what it means.  The Qur’an Explicitly Commanded us to follow the Prophet (s.a.w.). One cannot claim to follow the Qur'an by ignoring the parts they do not like.  Now, Sister Eleanor Grant, and Sister Juriah Din, as much as you may deny it, you know in your heart that what is said is the truth.  It is only Allah (s.w.t.) Who Guides.  And if you are sincere in this, insha’Allah, you will be Guided.  There is no learning here as long as people think they know.  The cup is full. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Even if the Quran was the only text needed, it is still absurd you think you know what it means based on a translation.  You cannot derive a perfect meaning from a translation.  Where in the Qur’an does it say, its meaning is clear to everyone who reads a translation?  You want to be a literalist, a verse nitpicker?  Fine.  But do you know Arabic?  Do you know Qur’an or just the English translation?  There is only one Qur’an and it is in Arabic.  So, you do not know Qur'an.  You cannot quote something you have never read or cannot read.  A translation is nothing more than an educated guess, after all.  A book devoid of context can never be ‘enough’ to guide anyone to anything beyond what their own ego calls them to. 

Sister Amanda Grace: Plus with the complexity of Arabic, and many words can mean up to 25 different meanings, taking it literally and putting it straight into a different language you will not get the full meaning of the Qur’an without understanding Arabic.  Why?  Because there are words that cannot be put into English or a different language.  This is why it is so crucial in learning Arabic.  This is also why there are commentaries, so that the verses can be explained.  Otherwise, it is taken out of context ... 

One also cannot just simply use a verse here and there, without studying when it was Revealed, why, what is the lesson we can learn from it.  All this is not just learned within a few years, no.  The Qur’an was sent to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) over a span of 23 years!  We are not even close to understanding it like he did. 

Sister Eleanor Grant: We will not agree on this topic, and it could go on forever, so I will say peace to you all. 

Sister Amanda Grace: as-Salaamu ‘Alaykum, sister. 

Brother Mingda Sun: I would like to copy and paste something, just food for thought for the Quranist folks.  We all owe it to ourselves to take extra steps to make sure we are following God’s Will.  We cannot be afraid to be wrong, rather, we must relish the chance to learn and become more.  The following is a transcript of a debate with a Quranist.  Quranists reject the religious authority of ahadits, Prophetic traditions, as they consider it inconsistent with the Qur’an.  This in contrast to the ‘aqidah, creed, of the Ahl as-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah, who consider ahadits essential for the Islamic faith. 

Quranist: Why do you follow sunnah and ahadits?  The Qur’an is enough for us, and we do not need the sunnah and ahadits. 

Muslim: Before we continue, have you read the Qur’an?  Do you know Arabic? 

Quranist: Yes, I have read the Qur’an twice in the English translation; it was translated by someone who also does not believe in sunnah and ahadits. 

Muslim: Your contention is that, “Quran is enough for us and we do not need sunnah and ahadits.”  Although, it is quite amusing to see you using the two terms – sunnah and ahadits – interchangeably, when technically they are not the same.  You have only read the Qur’an twice, in the English interpretation, and not “translation” as you like to call it, when the Qur’an was Revealed in Arabic, yet you trust someone else’s interpretation for it; and that someone does not believe in sunnah and ahadits like you. 

Firstly, there is no such thing as Quranic interpretation, without the use of sunnah and ahadits.  The Qur’an was not compiled into a muswhaf during the time of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.); the compilation took place after he had passed away.  The Qur’an was memorised by thousands of companions, just like they also memorised the words and actions of the Prophet (s.a.w.).  But you see no problem in taking the Qur’an from them, but you do not accept when they narrate about what they heard and saw from Him? 

Secondly, even the Qur’an tells us to follow the Prophet (s.a.w.), but you Quranists are too arrogant to follow “just another man”. 

سُوۡرَةُ النّحل

بِٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتِ وَٱلزُّبُرِ‌ۗ وَأَنزَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡكَ ٱلذِّڪۡرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيۡہِمۡ وَلَعَلَّهُمۡ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (٤٤) 

(We sent them) with Clear Signs and scriptures, and We have Sent down unto you (also) the Message; that you may explain clearly to men what is Sent for them, and that they may give thought. (Surah an-Nahl:44) 

This explanation is nothing other than the sunnah, which teaches us how to pray, give zakat, fast the month of Ramadhan, perform haj, and so forth.  The rules of the Qur’an are general: It asks repeatedly to perform swalah, give zakat, perform haj, but it never specified the number of rak’at for prayers, or the amount for zakat or how to perform haj.  If this is unknown, it would imply that the religion is incomplete, which actually goes against the Qur’an Itself and therefore a heresy; Quranists should not align themselves with orthodox Islam. 

Thirdly, you claim that Qur’an is clear without one having to resort to ahadits or the sunnah, but the Qur’an itself Says, interpretation of which states: 

سُوۡرَةُ آل عِمرَان

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ عَلَيۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۡهُ ءَايَـٰتٌ۬ مُّحۡكَمَـٰتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَـٰبِهَـٰتٌ۬‌ۖ فَأَمَّا ٱلَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمۡ زَيۡغٌ۬ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَـٰبَهَ مِنۡهُ ٱبۡتِغَآءَ ٱلۡفِتۡنَةِ وَٱبۡتِغَآءَ تَأۡوِيلِهِۦ‌ۗ وَمَا يَعۡلَمُ تَأۡوِيلَهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا ٱللَّهُ‌ۗ وَٱلرَّٲسِخُونَ فِى ٱلۡعِلۡمِ يَقُولُونَ ءَامَنَّا بِهِۦ كُلٌّ۬ مِّنۡ عِندِ رَبِّنَا‌ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّآ أُوْلُواْ ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ (٧) 

He it is Who has Sent Down to you the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well-established meaning.  But those in whose hearts are perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning.  Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say, “We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord”; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (Surah Ali ‘Imran:7) 

So the Qur’an itself is refuting your false notion.  Some verses in the Qur’an are not clear, except for the people of knowledge.  And who are those people of knowledge?  Well, they have to be those to whom it was explained, the swahabah.  Who explained it to them?  It had to be the Prophet (s.a.w.).  Proof for that can be found in the Qur’an Itself: 

سُوۡرَةُ النّحل

بِٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتِ وَٱلزُّبُرِ‌ۗ وَأَنزَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡكَ ٱلذِّڪۡرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيۡہِمۡ وَلَعَلَّهُمۡ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (٤٤) 

(We Sent them) with Clear Signs and scriptures, and We have Sent Down unto you (also) the Message; that you may explain clearly to men what is Sent for them, and that they may give thought. (Surah an-Nahl:44) 

The Prophet (s.a.w.) explained it to his companions, who explained it to those who followed them, and those followers explained it to those who followed them, with a sound chain which exists until now and will continue, insha’Allah. 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴنعَام

وَلَوۡ نَزَّلۡنَا عَلَيۡكَ كِتَـٰبً۬ا فِى قِرۡطَاسٍ۬ فَلَمَسُوهُ بِأَيۡدِيہِمۡ لَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓاْ إِنۡ هَـٰذَآ إِلَّا سِحۡرٌ۬ مُّبِينٌ۬ (٧) 

If We had Sent unto you a written (Message) on parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the unbelievers would have been sure to say, “This is nothing but obvious magic!” (Surah al-An’am:7) 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: Allah (s.w.t.) has Said that there is nothing of the like unto him; the Qur’an is thus not meant to be taken literally as to claim to do so confers upon oneself the infinite knowledge and understanding of The All-Knowing - this is dangerous!  Not for no reason did Allah (s.w.t.) Tell us in the Qur’an: 

سُوۡرَةُ الکهف

قُل لَّوۡ كَانَ ٱلۡبَحۡرُ مِدَادً۬ا لِّكَلِمَـٰتِ رَبِّى لَنَفِدَ ٱلۡبَحۡرُ قَبۡلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمَـٰتُ رَبِّى وَلَوۡ جِئۡنَا بِمِثۡلِهِۦ مَدَدً۬ا (١٠٩) 

Say: “If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the Words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the Words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid.” (Surah al-Kahf:109) 

The ahadits are Revelation to support the Quran - Allah (s.w.t.) Himself Reveals in the Qur’an that whatever the Prophet (s.a.w.) says is not of his desires, so whatever Rasulullah (s.a.w.) said and did is from Allah (s.w.t.) and it is Revelation.  I am well aware that the Quranists have tried to create a false dichotomy between his words “as a man” and Revelation to explain this away, but this is nonsense.  He is the Messenger of Allah (s.w.t.) so if one can question whether his day-to-day life was lived according to the Qur’an, then one must also question his transmission of and veracity of the Qur’an we have today, which he received from Jibril (a.s.) and which he then passed on to his companions. 

Previous discussions have also shown very well just what the Quranists do with the Quran: the word “umiyy” was argued to mean “Gentile” rather than the correct “unlettered”.  “Swalu”, it was argued, by a Quranist to mean “help and support” rather than the correct “prayers and blessings.” 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴحزَاب

إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ وَمَلَـٰٓٮِٕڪَتَهُ ۥ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى ٱلنَّبِىِّۚ يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ صَلُّواْ عَلَيۡهِ وَسَلِّمُواْ تَسۡلِيمًا (٥٦) 

Allah and His angels, Send Blessings on the Prophet: O you that believe!  Send you blessings on him and salute him, with all respect. (Surah al-Ahzab:56) 

This kind of deliberate mistranslation and misrepresentation of Revelation to support one’s own sect rather than establishing truth is exactly what the Wahhabi’s, too, have historically done; so the Wahhabis and Quranists are as bad as each other - I make no distinction between them.  So, regarding the completeness of the message, yes it is, but there is much more that he could have told us to help us apply it.  To say that the Qur’an tells us everything we need to know is to place limits on just what The All-Knowing could tell us.  So, Rasulullah (s.a.w.) was, therefore, Sent to guide us to its true meaning and application, because there is not enough ink for Allah (s.w.t.) to convey all of His Words. 

Brother Billy Johnston: There are a few things here.  First, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. While we live in times that are blessed with open and free access to many materials; we are sometimes irresponsible with that blessing.  The conversations that used to take place between scholars who had the proper knowledge, now take place on Facebook amongst people with varying degrees of knowledge.  The latter is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has become a bad thing when ego is front and centre and learning is secondary.  All should be engaged in a process of learning.  The end result is that the Muslim community starts dividing themselves over things, sometimes over trivial things. 

Second, the Qur’an needs explanation.  It certainly was vividly detailed for those that it was Revealed to, but we are no longer living in the context of 7^th century Arabia.  The ahadits, and even the sirah can certainly help flesh out some of those details.  Context is indeed very important to understanding anything.  I often use a glass with water halfway in such discussions.  An optimist enters the room and sees the glass half full.  A pessimist walks in the room and says it is half empty.  A scientist walks in and says the glass is completely full, as it is occupied by air and water.  A religious scholar walks in the room and says it is empty because it does not have a soul. 

That is just a simple glass of water with water to the halfway point.  You can imagine what we can do with something more complicated like an ayat or a hadith.  While their positions contradict one another, all are correct from their appropriate perspective, but that is not always the case, nor should one perspective be taken universally in all situations.  Understanding context is very important.  It is why purifying and maintaining a pure heart is so central.  We can have all the knowledge in the world, but if the human heart is impure, even the Qur’an can lead you astray.  There are some examples of that in the world today, which I probably do not have to mention. 

Brother Zain Aly Trook: And bear in mind that the Qur’an is the absolute highest standing Arabic literature in the world, well it cannot be any less, and know full well that you are and will be accountable if your tafsir or the tafsir that you follow is not 100% accurate.  Nobody today has deciphered the Qur’an in its entirety, the only One Who Holds the full knowledge of the Qur’an is Allah (s.w.t.).  Yes, ahadits has been misused, but just look at how the Qur’an is being misused by those who believe that thier understanding of tafsir trumps all.  Allah (s.w.t.) has also Given us all a Gift which when separated from the ego, insha’Allah, serves as a guide to one and all and that is the heart, for it only knows, haqq.  So, tread carefully. In the end we all yearn to be accepted by Allah (s.w.t.), insha’Allah, we all are. 

Brother James Harris: Sister Eleanor, the translations of the Qur’anic verses you quote do not use the term “detail” to mean “all details of the law”.  The Arabic term that has been translated as “detail” actually mean “clear explanation”.  This is reflected in the fact that in various other translations, the word “detail” is not used.  The Arabic word in the Qur’an, “faswl” means “detailed” in the sense of “provide a clear explanation” or “make clear”, meaning to make plain or understood clearly.  This has nothing to do with “providing details of every aspect of the law”.  Consider in the following two points the translations you gave compared with other translations: 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴعرَاف

وَلَقَدۡ جِئۡنَـٰهُم بِكِتَـٰبٍ۬ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ عَلَىٰ عِلۡمٍ هُدً۬ى وَرَحۡمَةً۬ لِّقَوۡمٍ۬ يُؤۡمِنُونَ (٥٢) 

Shaykh ‘Abdullah Yusuf ‘Ali (r.a.): 

For We had certainly Sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We Explained in detail ― a Guide and a Mercy to all who believe. (Surah al-A’araf:52) 

Shaykh Muhammad Marmaduke William Pickthall (r.a.): 

Verily We have Brought them a Scripture which We Expounded with knowledge, a Guidance and a Mercy for a people who believe. (Surah al-A’araf:52) 

Shaykh Muhammad Habib Shakir (r.a.): 

And certainly We have Brought them a Book which We have Made Clear with knowledge, a Guidance and a Mercy for a people who believe. (Surah al-A’araf:52) 

Shaykh Muhammad Asad Leopold Weiss (r.a.): 

For, indeed, We did Convey unto them a Divine Writ which We Clearly, and Wisely, Spelled out - a Guidance and a Grace unto people who will believe. (Surah al-A’araf:52) 

Here again, the word “detail” does not appear. 

سُوۡرَةُ یُونس

وَمَا كَانَ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ أَن يُفۡتَرَىٰ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ وَلَـٰكِن تَصۡدِيقَ ٱلَّذِى بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ وَتَفۡصِيلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ لَا رَيۡبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٣٧) 

Shaykh ‘Abdullah Yusuf ‘Ali (r.a.): 

This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary, it is a confirmation of (Revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book ― wherein there is no doubt from the Lord of the Worlds. (Surah Yunus:37) 

Shaykh Muhammad Marmaduke William Pickthall (r.a.): 

And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be invented despite Allah; but it is a Confirmation of that which was before it and an Exposition of that which is Decreed for mankind - Therein is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds. (Surah Yunus:37) 

Shaykh Muhammad Habib Shakir (r.a.): 

And this Qur’an is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a Verification of that which is before it and a Clear Explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the Worlds. (Surah Yunus:37) 

Shaykh Muhammad Asad Leopold Weiss (r.a.): 

Now this Qur’an could not possibly have been devised by anyone save God: nay, indeed, it Confirms the truth of whatever there still remains [of earlier Revelations] and clearly spells out the Revelation [which comes] - let there be no doubt about it-from the Sustainer of all the Worlds. (Surah Yunus:37) 

Here, the same word is used, and in numerous translations the word “detail” does not appear as well.  We compared the verse with that of other authoritative translations to prove this point. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: The corruption of Islam started during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad.  When did the hypocrites start spreading lies and misinformation?  These people were the enemies of Allah and Prophet Muhammad who invented lies, and fabricated stories and were very systematically spread these among the people who had never met and seen Prophet Muhammad. 

The ahadits, in which are the main reason for the corruption of Islam, were collected 250 to 300 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad.  The criteria for collection of these ahadits adopted by al-Bukhari and other ahadits fairy tale writers was illogical and faulty, which resulted in very confusing, illogical, unscientific stories attributed to Prophet Muhammad.  The ahadits story tellers, according to my analysis, really did not read the message of the Qur’an before they started these so-called writings and sayings of Prophet Muhammad.  They have nothing to do with Islam. 

Brother James Harris: A critical analysis might be interesting, but I am afraid when these arguments are turned into a “defence of the ummah against a conspiracy”, I tend to switch off. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: What ummah?  There are only groups or sects in which are not Islamic.  The ummah died when Prophet Ahmad died. 

Brother James Harris: That sounds like Kharijite doctrine. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: This is why we have so much damage we see now.  What book was Ahmad sent with?  It is widely accepted by many Muslims that the Prophet received essential guidance for mankind not captured by the Holy Qur’an.  Furthermore, it is believed that Gabriel spoke with the Prophet on various occasions and at times liaised with him on many everyday matters.  It is asserted that such information can only be sourced from the Islamic secondary sources and not the Qur’an. 

The ahadits qudsi represents an archetype of such a Revelation which is claimed to represent the very words of God repeated by the Prophet.  The well-known forty hadits qudsi constitute such an example.  Many Muslims remain tacitly unaware of the historical basis and the late provenance of such a corpus.  From a Qur'anic perspective, however, it is clear that such beliefs and assertions cannot be supported.  There is not one unequivocal statement in the entire Holy Qur’an that categorically asserts the requirement of other sources being necessary to explain the Holy Qur’an or which are required for mankind’s guidance. 

The burden of proof remains solely with those that assert such a belief to provide clear, unequivocal evidence from the Qur’an for the requirement of other sources.  For burden of proof, many attempt to garner support from isolated passages, such as the requirement to obey God and the messenger.  This is then equated with other sources such as ahadits that were not formally canonised until centuries after the death of the Prophet.  The attempt undoubtedly is to legitimise the other sources.  If such passages are studied in cohort with surrounding verses, they clearly have a context and do not refer to the late compilations of ahadits that is usually acknowledged.  So, what happened?  Why have so many so-called Muslims put Qur’an behind their backs? 

Brother Billy Johnston: So we take the Quran, we throw out ahadits.  We throw out the sirah.  We throw out the sciences.  We have thrown out all context, as those things, by your logic, are inadmissible since they are not the Qur’an and the Qur’an can be the only context.  Sounds like my glass again.  Only this time, we have four people; one says it is half empty, the other half full, the other completely full and the other says it is completely empty.  Good luck sorting that one out.  The heart will see that glass as it wishes.  It will see the Qur’an as it wishes, whether it is of rightful guidance or a means to justify one’s sins.  The Qur’an can achieve both, depending on the condition of one’s heart. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: Much to the contrary, the Qur’an is replete with verses which categorically deny the requirement of any other source for religious guidance. 

سُوۡرَةُ الجَاثیَة

تِلۡكَ ءَايَـٰتُ ٱللَّهِ نَتۡلُوهَا عَلَيۡكَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۖ فَبِأَىِّ حَدِيثِۭ بَعۡدَ ٱللَّهِ وَءَايَـٰتِهِۦ يُؤۡمِنُونَ (٦) 

These are the verses of God that We recite to you with truth.  Then in what “hadits” statement after God and His verses will they believe? (Surah al-Jatsiyah:6) 

What Book was Sent?  We have been warned. 

Brother Billy Johnston: Revelation was Sent in the form of the Qur’an.  From a certain perspective, if you want to be technical, all books were sent, in the sense that their existence was Permitted by the Almighty.  Limitations should not be placed on knowledge, nor was the Qur’an the only form in which knowledge and guidance was Sent. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz, all that has already been addressed and no one wants a repeat.  You are not saying anything new.  Please read the thread first. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: And still most of you go left.  I am just talking truth.  Not disrespecting anyone 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz, I believe that the foundation of faith lies in knowledge.  This Quranist infatuation is nothing more than ignorant people taking the translations they like to prove a point they have already arrived at.  It is unscientific, contrary to established knowledge and nothing more than another form of hubris. 

Also, your Quranist “translation” is wrong: 

سُوۡرَةُ الجَاثیَة

تِلۡكَ ءَايَـٰتُ ٱللَّهِ نَتۡلُوهَا عَلَيۡكَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۖ فَبِأَىِّ حَدِيثِۭ بَعۡدَ ٱللَّهِ وَءَايَـٰتِهِۦ يُؤۡمِنُونَ (٦) 

Such are the Signs of Allah, which We Rehearse to thee in truth: then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? (Surah al-Jatsiyah:6) 

The science of tafsir is a challenging discipline that requires, first and foremost, firm knowledge of classical Arabic.  The Quranist movement are like mere children who read a book on the alphabet and want to teach the rest of us linguistics.  Amusing, but misguided.  You have no scholars, no real intellectuals, no gnostics.  And until you can actually come up with an actual rebuttal of the ahadits that does not demonstrate some ineptness and ignorance, no one will take you seriously.  You can call us misguided all you want, but certainly it is Allah (s.w.t.) Who Guides and leaves astray those who choose to follow their nafs. 

As for you quoting some verse out of context, contrary to what it actually means in Arabic, I leave this quote from William Shakespeare, “The Merchant of Venice”: 

“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

An evil soul producing holy witness,

Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,

A goodly apple rotten at the heart.

O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!” 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: All ahadits followers say that.  Islam versus ahadits will never end until all believe in the Qur’an alone as Prophet Ahmad.  I cannot imagine for one second that a great man like the Prophet Ahmad went around telling people to literally be like him in his personal life. 

Would Allah Send any prophet to tell his people to look him, act like him, dress like him, think like him, eat like him, sleep like him, drink like him, urinate like him, make love like him, stand like him, walk like him, brush our teeth like him, and take off our shoes like him?  Is this not extreme to obey a human being when Allah Tells us not to make any distinctions from His prophets?  Allah says no prophet would come and say be a worshipper, but they would call to the worship of Allah.  We are told not to make any distinctions between Allah’s prophets.  The video above is true.  Those are straight forward verses 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: It is not Islam versus ahadits.  It is Muslims versus heretics, Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz.  Only a child would believe such poorly made arguments as in the video.  And I would suggest you frame your points instead of flooding the thread with half sentences.  It looks very emotional, and does not help your credibility. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: The Qur’an is the only ahadits, not manmade ahadits.  How can a man whose mouth the Qur’an came out from utter such nonsense as the ahadits?  Satan is so dumb, and those who follow him are dumber. 

Sister Juriah Din: There is nothing mysterious in the Qur’an.  There is no hocus-pocus cryptic language beyond human comprehension.  The Qur’an is a Divine Book Sent to the entire humankind. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: If that be the case, Sister Juriah Din, then we have a problem here, do we not?  If the Qur’an is mubin, a Clear Message, then why is it that 99% of the Muslims are astray, according to the Quranist?  Would that not mean it was so unclear that all the Muslims are astray?  Or, if the Qur’an is a Clear Message, then it logically follows that the majority are correct, and the Quranists are wrong.  So, the message is clear, but you people are astray. 

Consider the trickle of nonsense we have from your co-religionist, Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz. Nothing that he has posted actually advanced his position.  It actually proved mine that you people do not know the Qur’an.  You are taking clear verses, utilising literary gymnastics to prove an unlikely position.  In all cases we have had, when we examined the Arabic, it was proven that you lot are wrong. 

That leaves me with no other conclusion, that this is a form of superstition on your part, in that you believe something even though there is clear evidence otherwise.  You have taken the truth and twisted it.  There is a term for such people in the Qur’an.  Do you remember those verses, since as a Quranist, I expect you to know?  This is the characteristic of the kafirun, in that they deliberately misunderstood the Clear Message.  And for those who claim to be amongst the Muslims but believe otherwise, the Qur’an Labels them munafiqin. 

Brother Billy Johnston: Each time I read a translation of the Qur’an, there is something new.  I suspect if I had fluent knowledge of Arabic, I would even see more.  In that sense, it is completely beyond my comprehension, as is its Creator. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Look at the threads.  Quranists have no respect for the Prophet (s.a.w.), and you want to claim to be on the Haqq?  Really?  It is true, Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz, that we are Commanded not to deviate, and we make du’a to that effect.  And one of the stipulations of the Qur’an is to obey Allah (s.w.t.), obey the Prophet (s.a.w.), and those in authority.  And another verse Commands us to give salutations upon him, and another to love him, obey him and follow him.  You cannot quote all these other verses, and forget those. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: None of you have provided any type of your proof. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Please read the thread again, carefully.  There are more than enough points for you to consider.  No one is going to give “proof” when the cup is full.  It is a waste of time.  We are the majority, with a silsilah that is traced back to the Salaf.  You people are new. The burden of proof is upon you, then. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: 

سُوۡرَةُ النّجْم

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ ٱلۡهَوَىٰٓ (٣) 

Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire. (Surah an-Najm:3) 

Both the words “ahadits” and “sunnah” are in the Qur’an.  Both of them refer to God's Sunnah and God’s Ahadits.  There is no such thing as Prophet Muhammad’s ahadits or Prophet Muhammad’s sunnah.  Most of the Muslims fail to realise that following words other than that of Allah is defined in the Qur’an as idolatry.  Today, people say sunnah this and sunnah that, but do we really know what the sunnah means?  The truth may just make you look at everything differently.  Throw out man-made ahadits and sunnah. 

The thing is, did Prophet Muhammad bring Islam to us or was the establishment of the basics of Diyn was here before him?  Allah Says that Prophet Ibrahim is the one who named us Muslims.  It is his ways in which we follow today, not Prophet Muhammad’s.  But in essence we follow one way, the Sunan Allah. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz, this verse you have raised is very interesting: 

سُوۡرَةُ النّجْم

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

وَٱلنَّجۡمِ إِذَا هَوَىٰ (١) مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمۡ وَمَا غَوَىٰ (٢) وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ ٱلۡهَوَىٰٓ (٣) إِنۡ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحۡىٌ۬ يُوحَىٰ (٤) 

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

By the star when it goes down ― your companion is neither astray nor being misled, nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire.  It is no less than Inspiration Sent Down to him. (Surah an-Najm:1-4) 

This is actually the proof that whatever is verified from the Prophet (s.a.w.) is ilham, inspiration.  And that means everything the Prophet (s.a.w.) says is a part of Revelation.  And that is why we have ahadits. 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: I would imagine this is like watching a duck shoot, where the duck shoots itself again, and again, and again ... 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: The only proof needed is the suwar and ayat. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz, if that were sufficient, you would be Muslim. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz; Believers follow what was Sent. 

Brother Mingda Sun: The Prophet (s.a.w.) was Sent.  We follow him.  And revere his holy family and companions.  We can trace our doctrine and beliefs back to the Prophet (s.a.w.) himself.  You can only trace your beliefs back to a few decades ago, when a few people starting preaching this ahadits-rejection stuff.  It is weird seeing someone so ignorant claim to be so informed.  

If swahabah could not be trusted to give us ahadits, why do you trust that the Qur’an they compiled is correct?  Were you there to see them compile the Qur’an?  Why believe in the Qur’an at all?  Why do you believe that the Qur’an is a Divine Book of Guidance?  Are there not miracles that took place during the Prophet’s (s.a.w.) time to show he was a prophet?  So you want to throw out the very documents, eyewitness testimony, that prove his prophethood? 

No one else in history has ever had the details of their life so thoroughly documented.  This is so people cannot claim to Allah, they never had proof of prophethood.  A book written in Arabic that what, 90% of the world cannot read, cannot possibly be sufficient in itself to convince someone like me, a former atheist, to give his life to Islam.  I would open a page, read a verse on killing disbelievers, scream, and run away. 

Sister Khadija Leona Burdett: My goodness, but these people are full of hubris and want to change what is not broken.  It gets tiresome.  Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis has given quite a good reckoning of the information and why ahadits are integral to our Diyn. That is truth!  The visitors have nothing to share that is useful, other than to know they are of the misguided.  May Allah Open their hearts ears and eyes and Teach them the right path! 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: This video reminded me of this and other recent discussions.  They ask for evidence, and you chop off their arm.  They refuse to accept and demand more - you chop off their other arm, then their legs, yet they are still too hubristic in their ignorance to admit that they are wrong: ‘Tis but a Scratch. 

Brother James Harris: I agree.  This movement cannot be taken seriously.  In every discussion I have had with Quranists, they respond to questions either by changing the subject or indulging in personal attacks.  I am afraid, it is impossible to take Quranism seriously as an idea or as a movement. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: Blow the dust off your Qur’an, ahadits terrorists.  That just shows the lack of understanding. 

Brother Mingda Sun: Quoting things out of context does not mean a thing, Brother Ameen.  And for calling us terrorists, you need to be banned. 

Brother Tarek Sourani: Brother Ameen, you should reconsider your adab with others if you want to engage here.  Also, please do not just copy and paste your stuff here. 

Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz: It is really sad how you ahadits terrorist put Qur’an behind your backs, then claim to be Muslims.  All ahadits terrorists say “copy and paste”.  Knowledge is power. 

Brother Jon Beatty: You say all ahadits terrorists copy and paste, but you have been doing the same thing, merely parroting what you learned from Quranist videos and websites.  I can almost guarantee you know nothing of Qur’anic Arabic and rely upon translations of people who use ahadits.  Besides that, your adab is poor, and you are not worth discussing anything scholarly since your mind is made up. 

Brother James Harris: [Admin] Brother Ameen Khalid Aziz has been removed from the group for repeatedly ignoring instructions from the administrators, and for showing enormous disrespect to other members of the group. 

Brother Tarek Sourani: Thank God for the administrators. 

Brother Mansoor Rizvi: I think I will make a video and call it the Quranists and Wahhabis Conspiracy to Distort the Qur’an and Islam. 

Brother James Harris: [Admin] I appreciate that Sister Eleanor has been trying to engage in this forum in a polite and thoughtful way, but I have been unimpressed with many of the other Quranists both here and in other forums.  This is a forum for open discussion, and I do not understand why many are not using this opportunity wisely.  There is an opportunity here to share your thoughts and ideas, so please do so in a civilised manner that does not involve name-calling and insults. 

Brother Jon Beatty: I have had the same experience with most Quranists: little knowledge and even less in terms of manners.  It is sad, really. 

Brother Colin Turner: I have yet to see one respectable and convincing academic work in support of ‘Quranism’.  That says a lot, I think. 

Brother James Harris: None of their ideas presented in this group so far has been able to hold water.  Their methodology involves cherry-picking selected English translations to override and reinterpret core doctrines without any consideration of the Arabic text.  Indeed, an exception is made of the Qur’an with respect to basic notions of reading and text interpretation.  These seem to be thrown out the window in favour of ad hoc interpretations.  We would not do this for any other book.  That is why it will never work for me. 

Brother Hajj Ahmad: This is the most ridiculous post I have ever viewed.  Why do you all spend so much time trying to change the minds of people who are “Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return to the path.”  The Quranist club is preposterous.  Please, brothers and sisters, do not devote any more time to this.  Enough has been said.  Do not waste your time on this rubbish.  It hurts me to see this ongoing discussion attempting to reason with ignorance.