The Sharing Group Discussion: Answering the Question “Where is Allah (s.w.t.)?”

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

Brother James Harris asked, on The Sharing Group, on the 18^th October 2014: “If somebody asked you, ‘Where is Allah (s.w.t.)’, how would you reply?” 

Brother Eddie He Rnandez: Allah (s.w.t.) is defined by neither time nor space; both parameters of His Creation, just as cell phone towers are things of human creation.  You do not see people limited, in their face to face conversations, by proximity to a cell phone tower.  Likewise, Allah (s.w.t.) is not limited or defined by His Own Creation. 

Sister Notrumi Embun: Where is “where”? 

Brother Yahya Birt: I would quote my sheikh who says, “If you want to know where you are with Allah (s.w.t.), see where Allah is with you (s.w.t.).”  This is not quite the credal answer the questioner is seeking, but it is the vital reorientation that we all need.  We need to stop trying to define God with human concepts, and try to figure out if we are getting closer to Him or not. 

Brother Doug Johnson: There is nowhere to look.  God is closer to you than you are to yourself. 

Sister Khadijah Alban: I would say I do not need to know where Allah (s.w.t.) is as long as I know and feel He is Pleased with me is all that matters.  A hadits qudsi says, from the perfection of a Muslim is to take what he can, and leave alone what does not concern him.  Our concerns should be knowing we are doing our best to please Allah (s.w.t.) and doing our all for the sake of Allah (s.w.t.). 

Brother Stephen Roche: Everywhere and nowhere. 

Sister Shima Umm Ramy: He with you if you are with Him. 

Sister Sel Rif: Outside His Creation. 

Brother James Harris: Where is that, Sister Sel Rif? 

Brother Camar Bin Ali: When a slave woman was asked where is Allah (s.w.t.), she pointed to the heavens.  In another narration, she said He is “fi as-sama’i”, “in Heaven”.  The Prophet (s.a.w.) then said she is a believer. 

Brother Raz Muhd: You could reply with this verse in the Qur’an: 

سُوۡرَةُ قٓ

وَلَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ وَنَعۡلَمُ مَا تُوَسۡوِسُ بِهِۦ نَفۡسُهُ ۥ‌ۖ وَنَحۡنُ أَقۡرَبُ إِلَيۡهِ مِنۡ حَبۡلِ ٱلۡوَرِيدِ (١٦) 

It was We Who Created man, and We Know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are Nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. (Surah Qaf:16) 

Brother Abdullah Nur Ihsan Friday: I will just point to where my heart is. 

Brother James Harris: Brother Camar Bin Ali:, “fi as-sama’i” actually means “in the sky”. 

Sister Amatullah Jyly Armstrong: Where is He not? 

Brother Zarqa Yusuf: I would say everywhere. 

Sister Samra Hussain: I would give an analogy that Creation is a novel, and Allah (s.w.t.) is the Author. 

Brother Camar Bin Ali: All answers that contradict the Qur’an and sunnah are unacceptable.  It is enough to say as Allah (s.w.t.) Says: 

سُوۡرَةُ طٰه

ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنُ عَلَى ٱلۡعَرۡشِ ٱسۡتَوَىٰ (٥) 

(Allah) Most Gracious is Firmly Established on the Throne (of Authority). (Surah ThaHa:5) 

Brother James Harris: Brother Camar Bin Ali, nobody here would accept anything other than an understanding that is in line with Qur’an and sunnah.  That, indeed, goes without saying, as this is an Islamic discussion forum after all. 

Brother Abdur Rahman: Where is He not? 

Brother James Harris: The issue is that Allah (s.w.t.) is not a physical being who occupies time and space, and so the idea of “closeness” is not one that we are familiar with in the physical world in its usual sense.  In the sense that it is not the usual sense of “closeness”, we experience in our everyday lives, the verse about being Closer than our jugular vein could be viewed as metaphorical to some extent. 

Brother Camar Bin Ali: When Imam Abu ‘Abdullah Malik ibn Anas (r.a.) was asked regarding the above verse, He said, al-istiwa’ is not uncommon, and the “how” is not known, and asking about it is innovation in religion. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: We say, as per the Qur’an, that Allah (s.w.t.) is Transcendent and Immanent.  He is Transcendent, distinct from Creation: 

سُوۡرَةُ الشّوریٰ

… لَيۡسَ كَمِثۡلِهِۦ شَىۡءٌ۬‌ۖ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلۡبَصِيرُ (١١) 

... there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One Who Hears and Sees (all things). (Surah ash-Shura’:11) 

And He is Omnipresent and Close: 

سُوۡرَةُ قٓ

… وَنَحۡنُ أَقۡرَبُ إِلَيۡهِ مِنۡ حَبۡلِ ٱلۡوَرِيدِ (١٦) 

... for We are Nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. (Surah Qaf:16) 

Allah (s.w.t.) is an-Nur: 

سُوۡرَةُ النُّور

۞ ٱللَّهُ نُورُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۚ … (٣٥) 

Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth ... (Surah an-Nur:35) 

We see everything by virtue of light.  But we do not see the Light.  We exist by virtue of Allah (s.w.t.), but we are Veiled from Him by His Overwhelming Presence in the same manner the fish do not see the Ocean.  But while the fish may leave the ocean to see it, we cannot exist beyond Allah (s.w.t.) to “see” Him: 

سُوۡرَةُ الاٴنعَام

لَّا تُدۡرِڪُهُ ٱلۡأَبۡصَـٰرُ وَهُوَ يُدۡرِكُ ٱلۡأَبۡصَـٰرَ‌ۖ وَهُوَ ٱللَّطِيفُ ٱلۡخَبِيرُ (١٠٣) 

No vision can encompass Him, but He Encompasses all vision: He is beyond all comprehension yet is Acquainted with all things. (Surah al-An’am:103) 

So where is Allah (s.w.t.)?  To paraphrase Sayyidina ‘Ali ibn Abu Thalib (k.w.), we do not even understand the “where”.  Shaykh Muhyi ad-Din Abu ‘Abdullah Muhammad ibn ‘Ali ibn ‘Arabi (q.s.), Shaykh Abu Sa’id ibn Abu al-Hasan Yasar al-Baswri (q.s.), Shaykh Bayazid Thayfur ibn ‘Isa al-Bisthami (q.s.), and the ‘arifin have all said that we see Him by His Sight, not ours. 

Brother Camar Bin Ali: The Prophet (s.a.w.) guided us to something safer, that is to think of Allah’s (s.w.t.) Creation, rather than thinking of Allah’s (s.w.t.) Person.  Let us just busy ourselves with worship of Him, and ask for His Guidance in all our affairs.

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: The Prophet (s.a.w.) did not say anything of that sort.  If that were the case, there would be no science of tawhid and kalam.  And then, who would we be worshipping?  Our nafs?  Idols?  Creations of our mind? 

For someone who is thinking of coming to Islam, this is a valid question.  And there are ahadits where the Prophet (s.a.w.) was asked, and Revelation came and Answered.  For someone who is Muslim, it is important to contemplate the Nature of the Divine.  That is far more meritorious than contemplating Creation.  The Creator is Eternal.  Creation is ephemeral.  It is a foolish notion to say we should not think of God.  That is what Shaythan would wish. 

Brother James Harris: Brother Camar Bin Ali, the verses and statements you have posted in your comments deal with specific issues that need more context in order to be understood properly.  This context has not been provided in your comments.  There is no blanket prohibition in Islam on thinking about how we understand Allah (s.w.t.), His Nature, and Attributes.  The entire discipline of kalam and ‘aqidah is based on these important questions, which have for centuries been central points of focus in Islamic scholarship.  Such a discussion is certainly not prohibited. 

Brother Colin Turner: It all depends on what we mean by “where”. 

Brother Camar Bin Ali: I know how important it is to think of Allah (s.w.t.), but to think of how He looks like is something we should not think.  It is beyond our imagination.  The science of tawhid is the fundamental teaching of Islam, but I do not mix it with the science of kalam.  Kalam, as far as I know, is discouraged by the great scholars, including many of the great a’immah. 

Brother James Harris: Brother Camar Bin Ali, please stick to the topic of the thread.  The issue of what Allah (s.w.t.) looks like is not relevant to the topic of this discussion, and was not raised in the thread. 

Brother Camar Bin Ali: I mean here to avoid going into details about the above posted question, rather we should busy ourselves with worship of him. 

Brother Alexander Zoltan Homoky: Where is not Allah (s.w.t.)? 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: A slightly different point but I thought Archbishop Rowan Douglas Williams’ reply to a six-year-old girl’s question asking God how He Got created, was rather touching and appropriate here: 

“Dear Lulu, 

Your dad has sent on your letter and asked if I have any answers.  It is a difficult one!  But I think God might Reply a bit like this – 

‘Dear Lulu – Nobody invented Me – but lots of people discovered Me, and were quite surprised.  They discovered Me when they looked round at the world and thought it was really beautiful or really mysterious and wondered where it came from.  They discovered Me when they were very, very quiet on their own and felt a sort of peace and love they had not expected. 

Then they invented ideas about Me – some of them sensible and some of them not very sensible.  From time to time, I Sent them some hints – especially in the life of Jesus – to help them get closer to what I am really like. 

But there was nothing and nobody around before Me to invent Me.  Rather like somebody who writes a story in a book, I Started Making up the story of the world and eventually Invented human beings like you who could ask Me awkward questions!’ 

And then he would Send you lots of Love, and sign off. 

I know He does not usually write letters, so I have to do the best I can on His Behalf.  Lots of love from me too. 

Archbishop Rowan” 

Brother James Harris: Brother Camar Bin Ali, kalam is a mainstream discipline within the Islamic scholarly tradition, and The Sharing Group is a mainstream Islamic forum.  The idea that certain questions should not be asked is different from the idea that certain questions cannot be answered.  Please note the difference.  People are free to ask or discuss whatever issue they wish. 

To say that people need to focus on acts of worship instead of asking questions, is like turning up to a discussion on tafsir, and telling people to focus on worship instead of “wasting their time: on interpreting verses of the Qur’an.  If your teachers are telling you that you should not be studying certain key branches of Islam, then may I suggest you find a teacher who is willing to give you the full story. 

Brother David Sterling: Where is He not? 

Brother James Harris: Allah (s.w.t.) does not occupy a physical time or place, so any statements in the Qur’an or ahadits that refer to Allah (s.w.t.) being located somewhere are stated as such for us to comprehend Him, but we should not interpret this literally, that He physically occupies a place near our jugular vein.  It is only language used as a vehicle to help us understand His Nature, as limited as our understanding can be.  The non-literal nature of these descriptions is made clear in the following verse: 

سُوۡرَةُ الشّوریٰ

… لَيۡسَ كَمِثۡلِهِۦ شَىۡءٌ۬‌ۖ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلۡبَصِيرُ (١١) 

... there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One Who Hears and Sees (all things). (Surah ash-Shura’:11) 

Brother Fahim Ferdous Promi: Rabbi Musa ibn Maymun (r.a.) described it best: ““This is to accept that this Oneness that we have mentioned above is not a body and has no strength in the body, and has no shape or image or relationship to a body or parts thereof.  This is why the sages of blessed memory said with regard to Heaven there is no sitting, nor standing, no awakeness, nor tiredness.  This is all to say that He does not partake of any physical actions or qualities. And if He were to be a body, then He would be like any other body, and would not be God.  All that is written in the holy books regarding descriptions of God, they are anthropomorphic.  Thus said our great rabbis of blessed memory, ‘The Torah speaks in man’s language,’ that is, it uses human terminology to offer understanding.  And the rabbis have already spoken at length on this issue.  This is the third pillar and is attested to by the verse, ‘For you saw no image’, meaning that you did not see an image or any form when you stood at Sinai because, as we have just said, He has no body, nor power of the body.” 

Brother Paul Salahuddin Armstrong: Someone asked me this many years ago, just before I embraced Islam.  I remember answering, “Allah (s.w.t.) Knows Best”.  Sometime in the past few years, I saw him again, and he asked the same question.  I said, “I remember you asking me that many years ago, before I embraced Islam.  Do you remember what I said?”

He said, “No.” 

I replied, “Allah (s.w.t.) Knows Best.” 

He asked, “And what do you say now?” 

I replied, “Oh, Allah (s.w.t.) still Knows Best!  Don’t you think?”  For some reason, the guy lost it. 

Brother Colin Turner: God is nowhere, but in a sense He is everywhere; as the Qur’an Says, wherever one looks, there is the Face of God.  So, an Omnipresent God is a God Who is not locatable in one place alone.  This does not mean, of course, that He is coextensive with the cosmos; rather, it means that wherever one looks, there is His Manifestation.  That is probably about as much as we can say. 

“Whereness” is, in any case, a wholly artificial construct.  “Here” and “there” are relative notions, not absolute.  “Where” is the cosmos, for example, is a meaningless question, and if we can understand how and why it is meaningless, maybe we can come some way to understanding why asking the same question of God is also meaningless.  Of course, “why” the question is meaningless in the case of God is slightly different to “why” it is meaningless in the case of God’s Creation. 

Brother Abdullah Shalchi: Are “everywhere” and “everything” nouns?  If so, to say that God is everywhere, or nowhere also puts limitations on Him.  Ultimately, He is, of course, incomprehensible, but it is worth attempting to understand Him as far as possible.  But this whole idea that He Transcends space and time, He is everywhere but nowhere, and other apparent paradoxes that God Describes Himself as, are beyond me. 

Thinking about the idea of God’s timelessness and how it can relate to our day-to-day lives: perhaps the biggest trick the Devil plays on us - aside from making us believe he does not exist - is that this life is all there is, and there is no eternity.  We live between the eternity before life and the eternity after life.  But I often hear people say things like “live for today”, “life it too short”, and “you only live once”. 

Brother Ahmet Aydogan: Adapted from 32^nd Word, “The Words Collection” of Ustadz Sa’id Ukur Nursi (r.a.): “adz-Dzat al-Aqdis, the Single and Most Pure and Holy Essence, Whose Attributes are All-Comprehending and Functions, Universal, is far beyond and exalted above matter, and is utterly remote and free from any restriction and the darkness of density.  All these lights and luminous beings are but obscure shadows of His Sacred Names; and all existence and life and ‘Alam al-Arwah, the World of Spirits; ‘Alam al-Qubur, the Intermediate Realm; and ‘Alam al-Mitsal, the World of Similitudes, semi-transparent mirrors reflecting His beauty. 

What being can be hidden in the Face of His Oneness, which is within the Manifestation of His Attributes and Actions, which in turn are evident through His Universal Will, Absolute Power, and All-Embracing knowledge?  What matter can be difficult for Him?  What place can be concealed from Him?  What object can remain distant from Him?  What individual can draw close to Him without acquiring universality?  Can anything at all be hidden from Him?  Can any matter at all be an obstacle to another?  Can any place at all be empty of His Presence? 

Sayyidina ‘Abdullah ibn al-‘Abbas (r.a.) said, “In all beings are an immaterial eye that sees and ear that hears.”  Is this not so?  Are the chains of beings not each like a wire or vein for the swift conveyance of His Commands and Laws?  Are obstacles and difficulties not means and intermediaries in His Disposal of beings?  Are causes and intermediaries not merely an apparent veil?  While He is present nowhere, is He not present everywhere?  Does He have any need to be located in a place or situation?  Can the veils of distance, smallness, and the degrees of existence be obstacles to His Proximity, Power of disposal, and Witnessing? 

Moreover, could the qualities pertaining to material, contingent, dense, numerous, restricted, and limited beings, and the states of change, transformation, division, and occupying space, which are their particular and confined necessary consequences, in any way touch the Most Pure and Holy Essence, Who is far beyond matter, is Wajib al-Wujud, Necessarily Existent; Nur al-Anwar, the Light of Lights; and is Single, One, and Free from any restriction or limitation and Exalted above, and Pure of any fault or deficiency?  Could impotence in any way be fitting for Him?  Could any defect approach the skirt of His Splendour and Glory?” 

Brother Jak Kilby: Actually, I get nervous at this kind of question.  It was hardly ever asked of me, and I would not ask it myself.  Answers can start to claim identity and space, which is outside my understanding of Allah (s.w.t.).  At one time, a Wahhabi took it to task denouncing, “Anyone who says Allah (s.w.t.) is anywhere except on His Throne, in the highest point in Heaven, is a kafir”. 

When I asked, “And where is that?” - he pointed straight up above.  I asked him, “Are you not afraid of what you say of He Who is without limit?” 

And he replied, “Because of your ignorance we will not chop you to small pieces, and throw them where the dogs go.”  Happily, many responses here are far more considered and accurate. 

Brother James Harris: Interesting, Brother Jak.  I hope he is not a school teacher. 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: So they mistook you as ignorant and spared you?  Honour amongst the ignorant. 

Brother Jak Kilby: Exactly Brother Hamayoon.  That incident was in London, several years ago, while minding my own business browsing the shelves of the much missed Al-Noor Bookshop in Park Road, London, near the Central Mosque.  But it was obviously a taste of what was to come, unfortunately. 

Brother Irshad Alam: Imam Ahmad al-Faruqi ibn ‘Abd al-Ahad as-Sirhindi (q.s.) said Allah (s.w.t.) is unblemished and exonerated by all attribute of imperfection and all burn-mark of newly-originatedness.  He is not a corporeal body; nor is He corporeal.  He is laa makani wa laa zamani, spaceless and timeless. 

Brother Ahmet Aydogan: Adapted from 24^th Word, “The Words Collection” of Ustadz Sa’id Ukur Nursi (r.a.): “The words, “He saw Almighty God beyond seventy thousand veils” expresses distance, whereas the Necessarily Existent One is free of space.  He is closer to everything than anything else.  What does this mean?  This truth has been explained in detail and with proofs in the 31^st Word, so here we only say this: Almighty God is Utterly Close to us, while we are utterly distant from Him.  The Sun becomes close to us by means of a mirror we hold in our hand, and all transparent objects on the earth become a sort of throne for it and a sort of dwelling.  If the Sun had consciousness, it would converse with us by means of our mirror, although we are four thousand years distant from it.  And so, not that any comparison can be made, the Pre-Eternal Sun is closer to everything than anything else, for He is the Necessarily Existent, He is free of space; nothing at all can be a veil to Him.  But everything is infinitely distant from Him. 

Thus, the mystery of the long distance of the Ascension together with the absence of distance expressed by, “And We are closer to him than his jugular vein,” gave rise to the fact that God’s Most Noble Messenger (s.a.w.) went on the Ascension, and went traversing a vast distance, yet returned in a single instant.  The Ascension was the Messenger’s spiritual journeying, an expression of his sainthood.  For through their spiritual journeying from forty days to forty years, the saints advance to the degree of “absolute certainty” among the degrees of belief. 

Similarly, God’s Most Noble Messenger (s.a.w.), the lord of all the saints, opened up a mighty highway with his Ascension, which lasting forty minutes rather than forty years, was the supreme wonder of sainthood, and which he made not only with his heart and spirit, but also with his body, and his senses, and his subtle faculties.  He rose to the very highest degrees of the truths of belief.  He mounted by the steps of the Ascension to the Divine Throne, and at the station of “the distance of two bow-lengths”, witnessed with his own eyes with the “vision of certainty”, belief in God, and belief in the hereafter, the greatest of the truths of belief; he entered Paradise and saw eternal happiness.  Then he left open the highway he had revealed through the door of the Ascension, and all the saints of his community travel on their spiritual journeyings under the shadow of the Ascension, with the spirit and heart, in accordance with their degrees. 

Brother Muhammad Harun Riedinger: I would say, “Show me a place, where He is not, then I will show you where.”