The Sharing Group Discussion on the Proofs of God’s Existence

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

The following was posted by Brother Colin Turner on The Sharing Group, on the 29^th March, 2015: “What kind of ‘proofs’ do people here bring for the existence of God when asked by non-believers?” 

Brother Hajj Ahmad: The universe itself is “Divine Truth in Divine Design” as one person commented below in another thread. 

Brother Steve John Steele: The kind of proof most people really want is experience.  I could tell them about my experiences, but they are personal to me, they mean a lot to me but probably mean little to other people.  So what I do is I wish that they will have their own experiences.  I also tell them to keep their eyes open.  The truth is everywhere, you just have to see with the right eyes. 

Brother Abdul-Halim Vazquez: One of the things which changed the way I thought about the God question was reading the book. “Honest to God” by Bishop John Arthur Thomas Robinson and through it, being exposed to certain ideas by Dr. Paul Johannes Tillich. 

Brother Kyle Williamson: The golden ratio and the Fibonacci sequence in nature, DNA, the fine-tuning of the universe, its laws, its complexity, as well the superiority of an absolute morality, are proofs of a sort. 

Brother Abdul-Halim Vazquez: Dr. Tillich wrote, “The Name of this Infinite and Inexhaustible depth and ground of all being is God.  That depth is what the word God means.  And if that word has not much meaning for you, translate it, and speak of the depths of your life, of the source of your being, of your ultimate concern, of what you take seriously without any reservation.  Perhaps, in order to do so, you must forget everything traditional that you have learned about God, perhaps even that word itself.  For if you know that God means depth, you know much about Him.  You cannot then call yourself an atheist or unbeliever.  For you cannot think or say, “Life has no depth!  Life itself is shallow.  Being itself is surface only.”  If you could say this in complete seriousness, you would be an atheist; but otherwise you are not.  He who knows about depth knows about God.” 

Brother Louis Llewellyn Shann IV: I think the word “proof” should be removed.  We cannot prove anything, but if we want to take it to a proof level, we may not be having this conversation.  I think if we use the words “best explanation of”, when talking to others about God’s Existence, which gives us more intellectual freedom-of manoeuvre for all sides involved.  I have found in personal experiences with some agnostics or atheists it makes the discussion more friendly and they are more open to the things I say.  Just a tip for what it is worth. 

Sister Darwinn Girll Rendah: I ask them if they believe in pain, and they all say yes.  Then I say that people cannot see some pain like migraines, and only the person suffering can feel it so the believer feels the Presence of God without having to see him.  No physical proof needed. 

Sister Sairii Mehnaz Kamal: Well as for me, I asked God, and He Answered, through someone else,  I asked if there is a God, in my mind, and seconds later, someone sat next to me, and said, “There is a God.  After that, I never asked that question again. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: It depends on who I am talking to.  But I always build on the concept of God from rational proofs.  In the beginning, we understand that all matter and energy was in an infinitesimally small point, and it suddenly expanded, at a constant increasing rate.  On the basis of Newton’s Law, there had to be an outside force that changed this.  What as it? 

Brother William Voller: Normally ask what do you mean by God.  If they think a man in the sky then we can concur and stop there. 

Brother Ibrahim Colliver: When you see camel faeces in the desert, that is proof a camel was there.  The fact we are here is proof of the Creator! 

Brother Tim Saunders: For one moment I thought you were arguing that humans are divine shit, Brother Ibrahim.  The scatological argument for the Existence of God would be a new one. 

Sister Fatima Bibi Seedat: The Qur’an is proof enough. 

Sister Dinu Kuruppu:  I'm a Christian, but I think these principles apply to all monotheistic religions.  The reason I believe there is a God is because of the following: 

1. Intelligent Design - it takes more faith for me to believe that this complex universe came about from random happenstance than to believe there was a Master Designer. 

2. The theory of evolution, as it stands now that all life evolved from a single organism, does not stack up to evidence. 

3. The anthropomorphic principles - follows on from point #1. 

Lee Patrick Strobel’s “The Case for a Creator” has some good points. 

Sister Amanda Grace: These are all great answers, and I honestly would not know what to say myself.  Based on my experience, I can honestly say God Exists!  No doubt about it!  Truly there is Guidance for those whom seek it. 

Brother Colin Turner: There are no “proof's” in the scientifically acceptable sense of the word, “proof”, but there are countless indications, expressed as various arguments.  No argument is convincing in isolation, but together they form as much evidence as is possible for the existence of the Creator. 

Brother Hamayoon Sultan Qurayshi: My five-year-old asked me a couple of weeks ago about how we know Allah (s.w.t.) Exists if we cannot see Him.  After admittedly being rather startled that he even thought to ask, masha’Allah, I gave him a simplified version of how there are many things we cannot see but which we know are there; also that some things are so miraculous that only Allah (s.w.t.) could have Created them.  He seemed to understand. 

Brother Tim Saunders: My 5-year-old asked me last week why we cannot hear God Speaking?  I replied, maybe we have to listen with our hearts rather than ears?  And maybe the Qur’an is God Speaking but also maybe the whole of Creation is God Speaking?  I tend to answer with questions, such is the mystery.  He is still pondering. 

Brother Colin Turner: Maybe it is easier to think of God’s “Speech” in terms of communication.  In which case, of course, we see, hear, feel, touch and smell the products of His Communicating to us constantly. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: I do not think the Qur’an is “proof” when we are speaking to people who do not believe in it.  A Christian would rightly say the same about the Bible, and how would a Muslim react to it?  The Qur’an is more useful speaking to the converted.  When we address the non-Muslims, we must listen and find out what they think.  No one is truly an atheist.  They are all degrees of agnosticism. 

Sister Marjorie Abdullah: They might say there is no proof that God Exists, but there is no proof that He does not either. 

Brother Steve John Steele: Sister Marjorie Abdullah, the same can be said for anything: fairies, gnomes, pixies, ghosts, aliens, the Loch Ness Monster ... anything. 

Sister Marjorie Abdullah: True, Brother Steve John Steele, but some atheists act like there being no proof there is a God means they have won the argument. 

Brother William Voller: I also, in arguments, like to flip it over; prove atheism.  This is hard to do.  They might talk of randomity for example and so say okay, prove it exists anywhere in the universe - I do not think it does.  Also, the 2^nd law of thermodynamics states everything becomes more chaotic with time, so why is this unquestionable scientific fact now not true?  My point being that theism is a coherent theory that nicely explains everything, so what realistically is alternative? 

Brother Abdul-Halim Vazquez: More from “Honest to God”: “God is, by definition, Ultimate Reality.  And one cannot argue whether Ultimate Reality really exists.  One can only ask what ultimate reality is like.” 

He further wrote, “Thus, the fundamental theological question is not in establishing the ‘existence’ of God as a separate entity but in pressing through in ultimate concern to what Tillich calls ‘the ground of our being’.” 

Sister Eleanor Grant: You cannot prove anything to a non-believer.  Look at all the examples we have, in Qur’an. of people who were shown miracles and they still would not believe.  Their hearts and minds were sealed because they would not believe. 

Sister Amanda Grace: I don't necessarily think one cannot prove anything to a nonbeliever, Sister Eleanor Grant.  It all depends on if they earnestly are seeking the truth and want clarifications of things.  I know a few whom were down that road, and God surely Showed Himself to them, but in such a way not physically Himself, but proofs He is there. 

Brother Terence Helikaon Nunis: What Sister Eleanor Grant says is partially correct, but the word used in the Qur’an is disbeliever, not non-believer.  A non-believer is in a neutral state.  That non-belief can be due to ignorance or a lack of information.  Disbelief is on active state requiring the refusal to believe.  At the end, we do not really know.  When the Prophet (s.a.w.) said to pass the message, if only a word, that is the extent of our amanah. It is not our place to decide who, since we do not call; it is Allah (s.w.t.) in reality.  We are only the means. 

Brother Colin Turner: Sister Eleanor Grant, things can be “proven” to non-believers.  I was a non-believer once, and I am sure many other people here were also.